Newbie with timing issue

[Andersg]

Need help. Was given a 2014 2.4L Equinox with a bad piston and rod bearing. Rebuilt engine with new pistons, rings, rods and crank with all new bearings. Valves and Cams were in excellent condition so did not replace. Engine assembled and installed. Starts right up and runs but, getting P0016 after it warms up. I have torn down the timing chain and cover and reset the chain and marked links according to specs, #1 cylinder TDC on exhaust at end of exhaust stroke, exh cam mark at 10, (notch on cam is at 7) intake cam mark at 2 (Notch on cam is at 11) with 14 links between the colored links, no slack from the intake to the crank gear with keyway at noon and timing mark at 4.5/5 on the dial. Colored link hits perfectly. Replaced the tensioner and made sure all chain slack was on the exh side of the crank timing gear so tensioner could take up all slack. Have done this 3x after getting codes and when i disassemble valve cover, chain has some slack although fully tensioned when assembled. Not much but enough play to cause concern considering how tight it is when timing is set (you need to maneuver the exhaust cam to get the notch to line up and variable timing gear to align perfectly, tension snaps chain back in place and taught. Tensioner and all other guides were replaced at time of rebuild. Replaced both cam and the crank sensor to be sure those were not an issue. Changed out the variable timing solenoids (exh and Intake) as well.

Definitely runs rough and in low power mode after warmed up so this does not appear to be a false code due to wiring or a short plus the slack does appear in the chain when removing valve cover. Where am i going wrong? I am really about $1500 into this so still inexpensive car but, would like to avoid 1K+ for a pro to redo the timing chain. I know the mechanical stuff pretty well, the electronics not so well. Need some experienced input here. Can't figure this one out even after reviewing other threads. Thank you in advance!

 

[maxpg]

Have you got any luck with that issue?

 

[Andersg]

Hey Max. So a quick update. I changed out the cam gear phasers and it looks like the intake one was bad although it was new. Got rid of the codes however when i put it on the code reader, still have a P0011 code but pending so it is still a bit off. The plan is to borrow a more sophisticated reader from a friend and see if i cant get more details. Definitely runs better but not being street driven yet so not sure if the P0011 is a matter of the ECM resetting or not. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[maxpg]

Thanks for sharing. I encountered a similar issue after replacing the timing chain, P0014 and P0341. I reopened it yesterday, verified the marks, all were correct. The cam phasers appear fine, moving with the shafts, but I decided to order new ones regardless. I also replaced both camshaft position sensors and the knock sensor. I plan to reassemble everything over the weekend and conduct tests. Looking forward to see you street test results too.

 

[Andersg]

Here is the process that i photo documented for my own benefit. Note the crankshaft timing gear shows pre and post tensioner release with the slack showing to the exhaust side of the crankshaft on the before and the slack being taken up after. There are many videos out there but this one detail is not apparent in most and it is super critical. The other that shows on some is the need to put a wrench on the exhaust cam and rotate it slightly clockwise to get the cam shaft gear aligned to the pin position. Once you get that to pop on the end of the cam, you release the tension on the wrench and the chain is very tight from exhaust mark to the intake mark. All of that with number one at TDC on exhaust stroke so the intake lobes are really in contact with the intake valves on number one but not yet enough to open the valves as that happens immediately on the downstroke for intake of fuel/air as the engine rotates. This job can be done by removing the air filter housing etc on the top and the passenger tire and some of the wheel well trim however i found it much easier if i supported the engine with a jack and block of wood and removed passenger side motor mount assembly. The rear engine mount (drive axle passes through it) and the transmission do the majority of the work when supporting the engine but the jack allows you ability to align the access hole with the pulley tensioner and then everything else is more visible. Good luck! Will keep you posted on the road testing.
In the photos, note the rag stuffed into the small access to the oil pan below the crankshaft. Highly recommend this precaution or something will land in there and you are now dropping the oil pan too.

 

[maxpg]

Hello, thank you for the photos,
I got mine assembled back again, with the both new Cam phasers, all the marks are like on your pictures. Still had camshaft position error codes all over and the engine shut itself off when rev more than 1000 RPM. Codes were P0340, P0097, P0014, P0113. ECM reset gave no help. Changed both camshaft sensors to new GM's, without resolution.
Then I checked PCV vacuum, there was none, so I drilled a hole in the intake and cleaned it, there are many instructions about it online.
After fixing the PCV, I changed the intake camshaft sensor AGAIN for a new one and that got me rid of those codes.
Still have a sole P0446 EVAP system code though, but it is another story I guess.
Driving with precautions for two days, still no those codes back.
Do you have any update on your project?

 

[Andersg]

Hey Max, Apologies for the radio silence. Been on the road for work the past couple of weeks with limited connectivity.
Car is running as planned with one exception. Before the exception, had a bad mechanical knock when all was assembled and took it about 15 miles. No codes. Thought it was a rod knock at first but turns out 4 lifters lost their lift so went through the process of removing the head, replacing all lifters and clearing all the oil passages as a precaution. Went back together and then drove 100 miles to reset everything without issue other than a slight slip 2nd to 3rd. Did a tranny fluid change (not a full flush) and tranny was down about 2 quarts once we completed it. Cured the slip and drove the car for couple hundred miles. Next trip it started doing something odd. It idles in the 750rpm range and when in drive and stopped at a light, it would idle steady but car would try to surge forward and vibrate. Shifting to neutral solves it but very strange action since the RPMs are healthy and no codes show up. Oil is topped off and fresh, engine sounds fine it just does this randomly when engine is warmed up. Not sure if the torque converter is not sensing the full stop in drive or some other issue. Have not dug too deep yet but need to.
I have not had to handle the P0446 evap code issue so not sure i can offer any input on this one. Don't want to send you spinning in the wrong direction.

 

[maxpg]

Hey, you have the same symptoms as mine: steady RPM on idle, however slightly bucking/vibrating. I'm driving with the OBD scanner constantly now and noticed that Timing Advance is not stable and alternating. I'm not sure what causes that. Regarding P0446, I've revised the EVAP canister and tubes, cleaned them with vacuum and blew with pressure. Added cheap Fuel Performance additive. The code still comes back sometimes, it is not constant now, and at least I can fill my tank normally now.

 

[Andersg]

Great timing. No pun intended. So the surging was only happening at a very warm engine, driven at least 15 minutes before the symptoms reappeared. Noticed one thing that i did not mention previously, there was a strong fuel smell that was subtle but not normal. Looked at what felt like 100 forums for equinox, terrains, malibus, etc. - anything with a 2.4L There was not consensus on this issue but there was a consistency. Cam Actuators and VVT solenoids were often the issue. I replaced my VVT solenoids going from an off brand to AC Delco OEM and what a difference it made! The off brand are just not capable of the sensitivity needed for this engine. Did this yesterday evening and drove aggressively for 50 miles doing the last 15 in stop and go traffic lights without issue. 95% confident this fixed the issue. Never did get any codes. I did 2 other things as precautions since i was there already - took the throttle body off and checked intake for oil pooling or other blowback issues - nothing of significance. Also replaced the air filter housing screws that had all stripped out. Just went to number 10 screws that self tapped into the plastic in case i was getting a vacuum leak at idle via vibration or similar issue. I may go to the next level and JB weld some nuts on the base filter housing so a threaded screw can go in and it is not relying on holding the plastic in the threads. In the end it appears to be addressed. Will update after a week of driving. Hope this helps!

 

[AllTerrain1025]

Here is the process that i photo documented for my own benefit. Note the crankshaft timing gear shows pre and post tensioner release with the slack showing to the exhaust side of the crankshaft on the before and the slack being taken up after. There are many videos out there but this one detail is not apparent in most and it is super critical. The other that shows on some is the need to put a wrench on the exhaust cam and rotate it slightly clockwise to get the cam shaft gear aligned to the pin position. Once you get that to pop on the end of the cam, you release the tension on the wrench and the chain is very tight from exhaust mark to the intake mark. All of that with number one at TDC on exhaust stroke so the intake lobes are really in contact with the intake valves on number one but not yet enough to open the valves as that happens immediately on the downstroke for intake of fuel/air as the engine rotates. This job can be done by removing the air filter housing etc on the top and the passenger tire and some of the wheel well trim however i found it much easier if i supported the engine with a jack and block of wood and removed passenger side motor mount assembly. The rear engine mount (drive axle passes through it) and the transmission do the majority of the work when supporting the engine but the jack allows you ability to align the access hole with the pulley tensioner and then everything else is more visible. Good luck! Will keep you posted on the road testing.
In the photos, note the rag stuffed into the small access to the oil pan below the crankshaft. Highly recommend this precaution or something will land in there and you are now dropping the oil pan too.

I am getting ready to do the timing chain on my daughters 2012 'Nox with a LEA engine. The question I am finding myself having now is are the phasers the same for both the intake and exhaust cams? The Cloyes kit (9-4201SAVVT1) that I am looking at comes with 2 of the same phaser part number and I am having a hard time beliving that. However, when I see your pictures, it looks like the phasers are the same. Are they the same or are there different part numbers?

 

[maxpg]

I am getting ready to do the timing chain on my daughters 2012 'Nox with a LEA engine. The question I am finding myself having now is are the phasers the same for both the intake and exhaust cams? The Cloyes kit (9-4201SAVVT1) that I am looking at comes with 2 of the same phaser part number and I am having a hard time beliving that. However, when I see your pictures, it looks like the phasers are the same. Are they the same or are there different part numbers?

The same parts.

 

[Andersg]

Hey guys, mine on the 2014 are same parts. There are versions that are different parts and admittedly cannot recall the transition from two part numbers to one. Using the VIN is pretty reliable unless there has been an engine swap.

 

[AllTerrain1025]

Got the timing chain replaced last weekend with the Cloyes kit and everything was going good until my daughter told me that the CEL is on. Put the code reader on it and now it is showing a P0017. The car runs perfectly fine and there are no other issues. I have read that sometime using non-GM cam actuators can cause issues, but in looking up the P0017, that point to the Exhaust Cam Position Sensor, which is something I had not touched yet.

I am doing an oil change and dropping the pan tomorrow to make sure there are no leftovers from the previous top timing guide and black intake side guide breaking up, but does anyone else have any other ideas or should I throw a Cam Position Sensor at it?

And, it is also still showing a P2138 that had gone away after the timing chain was done. For reference in this thread, I have replaced the throttle body and accelerator pedal already. Do not have a scanner good enough to do the actual relearn procedure but did the manual one (3 minutes at ide, off for 10, 3 minutes at idle).

 

[Andersg]

2138 if it went away and came back might be a loose wire connector or similar. Really tough to isolate. P0017 is the exhaust side and could be a VVT solenoid or poor oil pressure allowing 10 degrees of timing lag. If you drop the pan and clean out debris it may resolve but replacing the exhaust and intake VVT should happen with the timing chain update. Highly recommend you go OEM, very temperamental parts. Easy to access so fairly quick swap out.

 

[Andersg]

One other thought, if none of the above solves P0017, you may want to go back in and reset timing chain. The exhaust cam needs to be maneuvered to ensure slack is consumed on exhaust side of chain and once released tension should be there and chain/mark alignment should be there too. This is tricky and unfortunately resetting the timing marks really require chain removal and reinstall, it is a traveling chain that deliberately takes 30+ rotations to realign marks so chain and gears wear evenly. Tough to get it right without removing it completely.

 

[AllTerrain1025]

One other thought, if none of the above solves P0017, you may want to go back in and reset timing chain. The exhaust cam needs to be maneuvered to ensure slack is consumed on exhaust side of chain and once released tension should be there and chain/mark alignment should be there too. This is tricky and unfortunately resetting the timing marks really require chain removal and reinstall, it is a traveling chain that deliberately takes 30+ rotations to realign marks so chain and gears wear evenly. Tough to get it right without removing it completely.

Did drop the pan and found all of the pieces to the top guide (both metal and plastics). Disconnected the battery while I was doing that whole process. Got everything back together filled up the oil, and all the codes were gone. Took it on about a 14 mile drive, no issues at all. Has my daughter pull it into the garage to test fit some stuff in the back and everything was fine. When she started it back up again to pull it out, the P0017 shows up again.

I did replace the solenoids when I did the timing chain job, but they were the parts that were included in the Cloyes kit. Would step #1 be to try and replace with an AC Delco OEM one? Those are pretty easy to get at so it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I do believe that I got the timing right as with this being an interference engine, if something was off, I would think the motor would go bye bye.

Before I released the tensioner when I was doing the job, I pulled all the chain slack to the intake side per the instructions on the Cloyes video.

Other than this annoying ass code, my daughters 'Nox is running a lot better and quieter than she was before.

 

[Andersg]

Encouraging progress! Great to get that pan and oil sump cleaned out. If you look at photos in this thread, one shows chain prior tensioner release and slack is on the exhaust side of the crank. If slack is on intake side, tensioner will not work properly. Not sure what cloyes instructions say but there are many YT vids out there showing this process no matter the parts source. It’s great it’s running better than ever but that code will haunt you.

 

[AllTerrain1025]

Encouraging progress! Great to get that pan and oil sump cleaned out. If you look at photos in this thread, one shows chain prior tensioner release and slack is on the exhaust side of the crank. If slack is on intake side, tensioner will not work properly. Not sure what cloyes instructions say but there are many YT vids out there showing this process no matter the parts source. It’s great it’s running better than ever but that code will haunt you.

I mispoke about which side I moved the slack to. I moved it to the main tension side following the instructions in the video Cloyes had on their website: https://cloyes.com/gm-2-0-2-2-2-4l-timing-replacement-cloyes-9-4201s-9-4202s/

Do you think the non-OEM VVT solenoids could be the root cause of the code? What's odd is that code did not show up before; it was throwing the P2138 and I just happened to pull the valve cover and see the missing top chain guide.

 

[Andersg]

It’s possible the off brand are not advancing or retarding properly but just the exhaust code is suspect. Could drive it for awhile and see what happens or perhaps find an advanced scanner that can give you the timing details so you know how far off it might be if at all. These 2.4s are a pita to troubleshoot

 

[AllTerrain1025]

It’s possible the off brand are not advancing or retarding properly but just the exhaust code is suspect. Could drive it for awhile and see what happens or perhaps find an advanced scanner that can give you the timing details so you know how far off it might be if at all. These 2.4s are a pita to troubleshoot

What is so bizarre about this code is that it did not show up after I replaced the timing chain last weekend. It took a few days then it showed up. Same thing yesterday after I dropped the oil pan and cleaned it out. Did a ~15 mile road test and nothing. Park it for a bit and start it up and there's the damn code.

I am thinking I may just order the OE solenoids and see if that does it. That is the one thing I keep coming back to since the ones I took out were OEM and there was not that issue. I have read on the Terrain forum that many people who got the non-OE solenoids or cam position sensors have had the same issue with either the P0017, P0016, P0014, or P0013.